Podcast Transcription: The Power of Walking: How 15,000 Daily Steps Impact Longevity and Heart Health with Greg Mushen

Ted Ryce: Greg Mushen, thanks for coming on the Legendary Life Podcast. Excited to talk to you today, man.  

Greg Mushen: Oh, thanks for having me/ Really excited to be here.  

Ted Ryce: Yeah. And, um, here's how I wanna start off this conversation. I found you on XI or the app formerly known as Twitter, and I saw you a couple times come up and, and then I started paying more attention. 

I started following you. I'm like, I really liked what you were saying. In fact, so much so that I ended up changing my workout around. I was doing a lot of zone two cardio, got rid of it, and I'm like, you know what? I'm just gonna, this guy's got me really thinking about steps and for a number of different reasons in which we're gonna go into. 

And I started a 30 day, 15,000 steps minimum, or because I ended up going over, so I'm like, all right, it's just a minimum now. So let's start off like this. Why walking? Why'd you get, so why are you known for walking and, um, are you, will you be giving discounts to your walking course at the end of this podcast? 

Greg Mushen: Yeah, I'll definitely be giving, giving, uh, discounts for sure. So, you know, I, I started getting into walking it, it kind of started with personal experience. So a couple years ago, uh, I had a friend ask me if I wanted to enter this body transformation contest. And I said, yeah, absolutely. So he was coaching me at the time and he told me to walk, you know, minimum 10,000 steps. 

And so I just asked him, well, what would happen if I, you know, walked 17 or 18,000? He was like, oh, that'd be a lot better. So I started doing it and I just noticed, you know, just this fat just coming off me and I noticed just how much better I felt and I still had a lot of energy in the gym for workouts, um, because the fatigue was so low. 

So I just saw all of these benefits and that's what it really got me into it. But I think that what, what really changed my mind was I did this series on why a lot of the subsistence populations don't get heart disease. And you know, what I started noticing from the subsistence populations is they had a lot of varying diets, you know, from the chi who ate like seven 70% carbs in South America all the way to the messai. 

Um, who primarily ate, you know, milk, a little bit of meat, um, blood from, from the cows that they, uh, carry. So the diets were very, very different on two ends of the spectrum, you could say. But one thing that was very common was the amount of steps that they took, the amount of activity that they did, and in particular, kind of low level activity. 

And it was really interesting to me because it seemed like, you know, once you got above this threshold, and it's called pal, which is physical activity level. You could, it's, uh, a ratio of total energy expenditure, so how many, how much energy you're burning during the day over your base metabolic rate, which would be, you know, kind of how much you would burn if you were, you know, laying on the couch or in the hospital or something. 

And once that achieved two, you would see, you know, chronic disease just kind of vanish. But then you would move some of them into the city activity would go down, that pal would dip down to 1.6, 1.7, and then you would start to see some insulin resistance come in, some high blood pressure. I'm sure you moving into the city obviously changed their diet too. 

So it wasn't, you know, only movement. But, uh, that is what really convinced me is, you know, seeing kind of this, this threshold that appeared to exist of that pal too. And I was like, uh, there's something there. And, uh, then just from practical terms, um, what I really like about it is it's great for nutrient partitioning. 

Um, so making sure, you know, the, the fats, the, the, uh. Sugars that you're eating, protein is all going to the right place. And, uh, also clearance. So, you know, the things that we ingest, um, we also have to clear. So for example, if you walk after a meal, if you, if you eat a meal, you're gonna have some sort of, you know, glucose spike. 

And you can really reduce that by walking. In fact, in one study that I saw, a 50 minute walk in these type two diabetes patients was more effective than metformin alone. Um, which is, you know, one of the most common medications that's given. So it's incredible for nutrient partitioning. And then, um, mitochondrial biogenesis, so you can build more mitochondria, really increase your oxidative capacity. 

It's incredible for, um, kind of lowering inflammation and it just kind of comes at very low costs. Um, so it does have a high cost in, in terms of time. But in terms of fatigue, it's really, really low. I mean, you can walk 15,000, 17,000 steps every day and you'll still go lift hard five days a week. So it was kind of all of those reasons that really got me into, uh, you know, walking is just a great thing to do. 

Ted Ryce: Yeah. Let, let's dive into that a bit because the thing that you were talking about, the clearance and, and the heart disease really, really like, got in my head and I had a conversation with a medical doctor on the show and he was talking about how, you know, you, you lay around for 12 hours or sit. For 12 hours, you start developing insulin resistance. 

Right? Now, I forget the details on that, and perhaps you can, if you feel like you're well read on the subject, you can get into it. But the question becomes like, okay, so I'm, I'm gonna lift a few times, I'll do some cardio, but because the rest of the time I need to sit on my butt and need to get work done or whatever else, I wanna relax. 

And, and so what the walking, why I got sold on the walking and specifically what you've been sharing is, yeah, I want to clear this stuff. Uh, right, because not only do you get the glucose spike, you get lipid spikes in your blood. Nobody talks about that because it's all about, you know, but you get spikes of lipids in your blood too, depending on of, of course, what you're eating. 

And it's like you wanna get rid of that stuff. And, and one thing before I hand it over to you, Greg, I was low carb for 10 years. Um, I mean, like I was putting butter on my bread to minimize the, the spike in blood sugar. That's how deep down the low carb rabbit hole. Right? Because, uh, you know, it lowers the glycemic, uh, um, index the meal you're eating when you, when you mix in fats with carbs. 

Of course I was adding more calories and when I got my blood tested, my cholesterol levels were high and I'm just like, man, I got freaked out because I've been doing that for such a long time. You know, when I pulled my head out of the sand and, and really got away from this idea of like, you know, calories being the main driver of body fat and then also like cholesterol is not high cholesterol levels in your blood LDL or um, you know, your apo B count. 

Not good to have, but I got a CT angiogram and I was clear. Right? 48 years old. Tax score is zero. No. Um, observable stenosis in my arteries and I'm like, I wanna keep it that way, man. You know? So talk to us about the difference between like what you've been reading. I'd love to get deeper into, uh, the chimani as well. 

Talk a little bit about like what do we need to know about walking, how the frequent exercise might be a better solution than going to the gym and doing hard 45, 60 minutes or even 90 minutes of, of zone two.  

Greg Mushen: Yeah. And at first I would say if you have something that's working, you know, keep, keep it 90, 90 minutes of zone two is great. 

You know, keep what's working for you. But there can, you know, I think be a, a benefit of and kind of breaking steps through the day. And if you just go back to that example where you have the type two diabetics and they're able to, you know, flatten their glucose curves. A little bit flatten the area under the curve after meals. 

So after meals can be one of the best times to walk In this study, they did 50 minutes, but you know, even a 15, 20 minute walk that's five zero Greg. Five zero, yeah.  

Ted Ryce: Got it.  

Greg Mushen: But you know, they, they didn't have the best glucose control. If you're insulin sensitive, it'll probably be a little bit better, but, you know, walking after meals in particular can really help your postprandial glucose spikes. 

I did a little interesting experiment. I was wearing a CGM for two weeks and this is what really sold me on it. And I could not, for whatever reason, get my, I was trying to get my glucose to spike by, you know, eating different things. I, I could just not really get it to move. Um, but I had these like really overcooked sweet potatoes. 

I'm like, maybe this'll do it. So I ate those and all of a sudden just bam, it was like one 60 and uh, I was like, okay, this is great. So I walked to the gym for 10 minutes and I did one set of leg press and I think it was like. One 20 by the time I got to the gym. So even a short walk brought it down, but after leg press it was 85. 

And so, you know, the reason why that happens is you have this thing in your muscles called glute four, and it's gonna translocate the, the glucose, basically take it outta your blood and put it into your muscle. So you know, the more muscle you have, the greater the glucose syn that you have, the more movement that you do. 

It's activated through movement. So anything is gonna do it. Walking, you know, resistance training, it's just hard to, you know, go do sets of bench press or late press, you know, after a meal three times a day. So, but walking, you know, it's a lot easier to go for a 15 minute walk or something, you know, you don't have to put on your running shoes. 

Um, but then going back to lipids, so lipids work very similarly. So, uh, one of the ways that statins work is it's going to, you know, inhibit what's, what's called hm uh, GCOA reductase, and then it's also gonna upregulate your LDLR receptors. And so what your LDLR receptors are, you could almost think of them as like this dumb waiter where it goes up in, in the bloodstream, uh, will, will take something outta the bloodstream, bring those lipids back down into the cell where they can be, you know, processed and and removed. 

Um, so, uh, when you move, um, it can be activating those, um, LDLR receptors. So, you know, the more movement that you can get, uh, the more you're gonna be able to clear, uh, these lipids in your blood. Uh, you do need to get, you know, quite a bit. I think it's, you know, you need to burn really, probably about 800 calories or so before you really start seeing the difference. 

But in some studies, you know, just measuring next day triglyceride levels, you could see that. 30, 40% reduction once you hit that threshold.  

Ted Ryce: Quick question, Greg. So you're saying like, dropping glucose, no big deal, like go for a 10 minute walk, it'll come down, hit a set of leg, press it. Of course we're using your quals one experiment here, but you're, if I understand you right, 'cause the, the glucose thing that's been well established, but with the lowering the lipids, you need a lot more calories  

Greg Mushen: to be burned. 

Is that Yeah. You need to hit basically a certain threshold. And a lot of the studies, it seems to be around, you know, 800 calories, something like that of exercise. Like burnt through exercise. Yeah. Yeah. And uh, that's when you see the, you know, the reduction in it. And it's pretty cool. You can see this in the Amish too. 

I know it's kind of funny to bring up the Amish, but they're like this perfect natural experiment and, um, you know, they, they make pretty much all of their own food, and it's food that they grow and, you know, animals that they tend to. Uh, so for that standpoint, it's really healthy. But in, in many ways, it's not too dissimilar from, you know, kind of the standard American diet, just take out processed food, but they eat, you know, two servings of sweets, uh, per day. 

Like cakes and pies. They have like one serving of vegetables per day, um, 16 grams of fiber. So from that standpoint, it's not too dissimilar from the standard American diet, but they walk 18,000 steps per day. And I think in, you know, in addition to that, they're getting a ton of neat, which is non-exercise. 

Um, you know, thermogenesis, you can think of it as like fidgeting. Any kind of housework, anything like that. So they get tons of flux and they have much lower disease rates when compared to the, the populations like 30, 40% lower in terms of, you know, blood pressure, heart disease, all sorts of stuff. But there is about 8% of the population with this, uh, genetic variation called R 3,500 Q. 

So it's, um, an A POB uh, polymorphism that impacts clearance pretty significantly. So even in, in that population, even with a ton of movement, they're unable to clear it. It's a great natural experiment because you can imagine, um, it same thing would happen if they're not moving, you know, they're not clearing this stuff. 

So that would be more or less if the Amish were sedentary, they look a lot more like the R 3,500 Q group, but it just shows how important clearance is because, you know, the minute you put that gene in, all of a sudden disease starts spiking for that segment of the population.  

Ted Ryce: Yeah. And, and we're getting into. 

A really important nuance that just doesn't get addressed enough. Because if you're in the health and fitness field, which I haven't even Right. Ied an intro for you at the beginning of the episode, but, um, this, you've come to us from a very different avenue. You were in tech before. You have a very interesting story, which we'll get to. 

But I want to dive into this first because this conversation, it's like, one thing that I think you've done a excellent job with is helping people to understand, including myself. Like, okay, so we have our genes, we have our diet, we have our, let's say activity and or, or let's say exercise. And our activity, this all needs to be. 

Considered because if you have that polymorphism that you mentioned already lost track or the pq, whatever, but that causes you to have a harder time clearing the, uh, that what is it? The triglycerides out of your blood cholesterol? What, what is it specifically that? So you're gonna have to, that means you have to consider, um, you know, of course leaving pleasure and enjoyment of life to the side for a second, just looking at it biologically, like you need to consider what you're eating and how much clearance through exercise and, and frequent movement you're getting. 

And if you get that wrong, you're gonna have, you, you may pay for it with building up a, a, a plaque in your arteries.  

Greg Mushen: That's right. That's right. So, for example, for me, I have, uh, one copy of the A POE four gene, and you know, this reduces clearance like 15 to 20%. And so for me, I have to be really careful about how much saturated fat I eat. 

And I'm not saying saturated fat is per se bad because I don't believe that. But for some people, what can happen, including myself, it can increase clearance requirements, um, disproportionately. And so if I have, you know, probably over 7% of my calories from, uh, saturated fat, I'm gonna see it in my lipids or I'm gonna have to walk a lot more to make sure that that gets cleared. 

So yeah, it's really important to, um, you know, match your diets, I think, to your genetics and then to your exercise as well.  

Ted Ryce: Yeah, I mentioned I went and had this CTA angiogram done, j just to come back to this conversation about genetics. For another example, for, for people listening, I had that CTA angiogram done, zero calcium score, 48 years old, also zero stenosis. 

But uh, when I was 41, I had a pre-cancerous polyp removed from my colon.  

Greg Mushen: Oh, wow.  

Ted Ryce: Yeah. So, and, and my dad had colon cancer. Don't need to dive into that. But he had it at a very young age. There was a genetic predisposition there. So it's really, really important. And, and what I love to ask you, Greg, is what have you found in terms of genetic testing? 

I looked at it a few years ago. I'm like, there's all these companies hyping this stuff up. I had a few experts on the podcast and it was just like, oh man, you guys, right? They're in some cases, they're not even looking, they're not doing like a full genome. Uh, they're not mapping your genome, right? They're just taking these snips and. 

I forget all the details about it, but you've done genetic testing. What can you tell us about someone listening right now who's concerned about their clearance and maybe their doctor told them they had familial hyper hypercholesterolemia, but man, that, that the guy, just the doctor rather just kind of said, oh, you probably have those right. 

Instead of actually doing any testing, what do we, what have you found through genetic testing? What's legit, what isn't? You know, there's so much stuff on the market.  

Greg Mushen: Uh, what I did, I can tell you about what I did personally, which was, um, one of the, one of the first, uh, versions of uh, 23 me that came out. 

And so I did that. I just got the raw text file and um, uh, there are a lot of tools that you can use, uh, to help kind of parse that information. One of them is called Genetic Genie, and so that can help you look at, uh, your methylation genes, which are also really important, um, or your detoxification genes. 

There are a lot of other tools out there as well, but even just having that raw file where, you know, your, your SNPs, um, can be, can be very, very valuable, um, because you can start making modifications. So for me, when I looked at my methylation, I realized that I had M-M-M-T-R-R, uh, so I need more, uh, folate and specific kinds of B12, um, actually specific kinds of folate too. 

So I need methylated folate and methylated B12. Uh, once I found that out, um, I kind of had a little higher homocysteine my entire life and that came right down. But I would've known that if I hadn't known about the MTRR. Um, and then same thing for A POE. So it's, it's incredible. You can find just a couple. 

A couple really popular ones, like M-T-R-R-M-T-H-F-R, I think it's like 40 or 50% of the population has that. So if you find out that you have, that you can fix your methylation in most cases. And, uh, then any of the clearance genes, whether they be a A PE, uh, four or um, R 3,500 Q, um, PCSK nine is another one. 

Um, there are probably about, maybe 10 of them, but understanding those is really important too, because you know, you're gonna realize that you've got a clearance issue and you have to address that either through, you know, more movement or you know, in some cases pharma  

Ted Ryce: and, um, yeah. Interesting. You mentioned the pharma part, right? 

Statins. Where do you figure out, like, so you did the 23 Me. Where did you figure out You had the, I, I forget which gene it was, but the one that affects clearance.  

Greg Mushen: Oh yeah, it, it was actually, I met this, uh, met this doctor just kind of by chance, and he's the one who, who originally turned me onto it. It was in 2015, I think about 10 years ago. 

And, um, so he was looking at my lipids. He's like, you know, have you ever had any genetic testing done? And this is kind of before was, you know, popular or, you know, really mainstream. And so he was the one who, who found it. And then, you know, once I realized that and saw what happened, when I kind of made the modifications, I became, you know, really interested in genes. 

Like, what else is going on? And you can find some really interesting things. Like I, I found out that I've got slow caffeine metabolism. Um, so it takes me a really long time with metabolism. I'm sure I have that. Yeah. So, um, I kind of knew this a little bit. If I had caffeine, you know, afternoon, I'd be having trouble sleeping. 

But it's really cool to confirm those things and, and know why. It's like, oh, that's why I've got that gene.  

Ted Ryce: Yeah, indeed, indeed. So, so you did the, the, so the 23 and Me, it's pretty solid in your, in your experience.  

Greg Mushen: Yeah, I think having that raw file for me has been, there's still other companies where you can do that. 

Kind of very similar because I don't know the status of 23 and me anymore, but like, you know, I think ancestry.com has one where you can get the raw file. There are a couple of ones out there, or you can do like a full genome sequence. I think they're like $400 these days, which is kind of mind, mind blowing how much the cost has come down. 

So yeah, if you really want to go for it, you can do that.  

Ted Ryce: Yeah. Wow. Um, I, I think they used to be like in the thousands, right? Something like that.  

Greg Mushen: Yeah, they did. Yeah. Now it's like four or 500 bucks. It's crazy.  

Ted Ryce: Wow. Everyone's gonna have like an AI bod and a full sequence of their genome living in wild times here. 

So. Cool. Um, let's, let's talk a little bit about diet and talk about, um, you mentioned something really interesting about, here we have the Shaima and Bolivia, and they have the lowest recorded heart disease ever. And then we have like tribes, like the Hadza, the Maasai, and I think it's Western Africa, if I'm not mistaken. 

And but as you said, they, they have higher saturated fat content. But in our discussion, you know, we had a phone call the other day. Or Twitter call rather. You were talking about how the, I think it was the Messiah had streaks of fat in their, it was it their arteries or their heart. And then compared to the shaima, despite having similar exercise levels. 

So what do you think is going on there? Do we, do we know gene wise what's going on with them as well? Or what, can you break that down for us  

Greg Mushen: a little bit? So, so, um, the Messiah have, like, they're gifted in terms of like their clearance genetics. So, um, they have, I think it's like CPT gene, but they can clear saturated fat really, really well. 

They, some of them can have up to 200 grams per day, so it's like a hundred to 200 grams and it's like a lot of fermented milk from their cattle. But, uh, they're walking like 12 to 16 miles a day. And even then, even with great, I think what's really interesting about looking at them is even with 12 to 16 miles per day. 

Having exceptional clearance. You know, they still have these fatty streaks, so they're not dying of heart disease. Um, they're still not dying of that. Um, they're dying of, you know, other things. They're still living into their seventies, but usually it's infection, uh, that takes them ultimately, pretty much at any age. 

Um, they'll, you know, just ultimately kind of come to, uh, uh, succumb to infection, but they will have, you know, some fatty streak. So you compare that to the chinet, much lower saturated fat. Um, a little lower movement. Um, but they're moving through, you know, 18,000 steps through hilly jungle terrain. And, uh, but they just have like much lower clearance requirements so that they're just not, it's like lower saturated fat. 

They don't have as much to clear. So I think it's that combo just, uh, you know, lower clearance requirements, higher clearance and, you know, you end up where they are, which is lowest recorded, um, CAC ever in the world with like a group of seven 50 too. So it wasn't really a small group. And this is across age ranges too. 

I think at, at 50, just like you, they were, um, pretty much at zero cac, but uh, by 60 they were only going up to eight. So, you know, they're just not, they're not accumulating it at, at any kind of measurable rate. Um, you and I think seven 70 went up to like 15 or something. So it's still exceptionally, exceptionally low. 

And they just have the balance right, I think of just input and, and clearance.  

Ted Ryce: Yeah, and, and I, I remember their diet or, or at least, uh, Michael Easter in his book, scarcity Brain. Which is, by the way, if you haven't read that book, amazing book. I'll have to put that on the list. Yeah. He, he went and hung out with his shaima, right. 

So, yeah, he didn't just write about him. He, he, like, he also went to Iraq and to like do, to cover. Journalistically, like some drug they're using there anyway. Um, it's a fantastic book and it's all relevant to what we're talking about here, especially the diet portion. But one thing, um, not only did he say there were, uh, again, he wasn't using studies like you are Right. 

But, uh, at least to my recollection, I might be wrong about that. You'll have to listen or read and let me know. It's okay. But, um, yeah, he, he gave the impression that sometimes they weren't perfect with their diet. They did go to the store and buy some things or have some, some types of treats. I forget exactly. 

But one thing that he, I feel like, and just in the industry, too much harps on diet and not enough on the combination, which is something, you know, I don't know if you're gonna be writing a book or what, what your, what plans you have for the health and fitness industry, if you have any at all, but. You know, I feel like you've done a really good job of like, Hey guys, right? 

We need to look at these. Let's look at these different populations. Let's look at these studies. Let's kind of think about the whole thing. What's going on at the genetic level, helping these people stay healthy, especially with what's killing everybody, which is heart disease. And then let's look at the activity levels, what they're doing, and then let's consider diet within that context versus just like, oh, you wanna be healthy. 

Because in our, uh, western world, in the US in particular, everybody, like, if you wanna make money with a book, you write a diet book. But arguably, and let me know if you disagree with this, happy to, uh, hear you out, but it's like probably exercise is the number one thing. If we're, you're not at an extreme just like, why eat donut, I'm on the donut diet. 

Right. Or the crumble cookie diet where you're, you know, you probably, if, if you have an imperfect diet, the thing that's gonna help you prevent those diseases, especially heart disease, especially metabolic diseases like type two diabetes is gonna be, you know, how much you move the types of movement in relation to what your diet looks like. 

Yeah, exactly. Exactly.  

Greg Mushen: And you know, really, I think it comes down to flux. So, you know, does, does your out, is this mushroom's law? It's kind of mushroom's law is what I've called it. You know, you could kind of have an opportunity to name it yourself, you know, nobody else is gonna do it. But, um, yeah, I think, uh, you know, flux does your, does your output equal or exceed your input? 

And it's different. This is like a kind of a different concept. From, you know, Kiko or energy balance, that's important too, because if you're, you know, an energy surplus, you're gonna be gaining weight in deficit, you're gonna be losing it. But even in, you know, a deficit that doesn't tell you what you're clearing, you could be in a deficit and be, you know, re relatively sedentary and still be accumulating things. 

You know, imagine if you were in a deficit, but you are, you know, just sitting around and the only thing that you're drinking is Coca-Cola really high in fructose. You know, there are gonna be some consequences from that. So it's, uh, important to be, you know, think about energy balance not being chronic surplus for years and years and years. 

And then also make sure that you're, you're clearing what's, what's going in. And I think that's probab, you know, really when we get right down to it, that's probably one of the most important things as, um. You know, heretical as that may sound because most of the time, you know, it's not that a lot of foods are bad per se, but there are a lot of foods that are bad in context. 

Going back to that Coke example, you know, if, if you're insulin sensitive, if you're drinking a Coke and then going for a run, I mean, you're, you're gonna burn through that 40 grams of sugar and like, you know, less than an hour. But if you're sedentary and you're in a caloric surplus, uh, that's gonna be very bad. 

Um, very, very bad. So yeah, I think it's matching that, um, matching your intake with your, um, output. And you can get away with, you know, a lot more if you're just moving a lot and having really, really high flux. I think if you're above pal, you could probably eat pal two or pal of three. You know, like some of the ultra endurance athletes. 

You could probably, you know, pretty much eat whatever you want and be all right. Some of them come  

Ted Ryce: down with heart disease still, right.  

Greg Mushen: Yeah, they still do,  

Ted Ryce: but it's not clear. Maybe they had a genetic issue. I, I don't know if any studies or you know, any, any information other than just the stories of some of these guys. 

Right. And, and we also know once you get, I, I shouldn't say we know, but there are some evidence, I'm gonna have a couple people on here. Um, Brady, Homer, actually another ex, uh, influencer, if you will. Yeah. And, and we will talk about that. 'cause that's something he's well-versed in. But like, in terms of the, um, you know, do you, do you have any idea, like, 'cause so you can clear it, but maybe the exercise is causing. 

Some  

Greg Mushen: changes. Yeah. So I mean, at certain levels, especially, you know, with different intensity, you are gonna have, you know, a lot of changes. Um, one interesting thing and, and actually the field's really changing around this, like probably the last year or so, because one thing that um, has been pretty controversial for, you know, probably a decade at least, is you see athletes with really high cac. 

And so, you know, some of these ultra endurance athletes can have like CAC of 400. And so for the longest time people thought, oh my gosh, that is, um, that's not a very good thing. Um, thinking that kind of like all CAC was created equally, but what they're finding out, and really this is this year, is that, um, there's certain kinds of CAC that are actually protective that don't really add to that risk. 

And so, you know, if you are an endurance athlete and if you've had a CAC of 400 and perhaps. You know, three 50 or more of that is, is protective cac. And uh, you know, less of it is kind of like the atherosclerotic, uh, cac, the CAC that's used to, um, basically cover and protect lesions from, from rupturing. 

So yeah, this is like this really exciting area of research where a lot of these adaptations and athletes that previously looked kind of pathologic, um, they're starting to realize that, oh, they're actually, you know, kind of protective, um, or maybe not as bad as they thought. And they're now emerging ways where, uh, people can differentiate between these two types of CAC and athletes. 

So I don't think that's mainstream yet, but there have been a couple papers that came out this year that show how to differentiate those two kinds. So for athletes that have high cac. I think it's, um, it's good days ahead, uh, because there're gonna be a lot of tools that we don't have. My dad, here's a really interesting story. 

So my dad was a lifelong runner and he went to go have a, a stint put in and they found that in one of his valves was completely ossified. It was like completely closed, um, with calcium, um, just hard as a rock. But what the cardiologist thought is it didn't impact him because he built up so much collateral circulation from, from his lifetime of running that uh, you know, is still able to get plenty of circulation in there. 

So, and that's what you see kind of in the, in the numbers. Um, regardless of if it's higher cac, you know, these athletes are gonna have much lower risk by a long shot for all kinds of disease, whether that be cancer or, you know, heart disease, even if their numbers look. Not as good in terms of like CAC and things like that,  

Ted Ryce: that, that is good to know. 

I can't help but thinking like, I want to keep my, my CAC score at zero and just, uh, you know, be more like the shaima. But if you're already in a situation, I have a friend of mine, he is a really good guy, um, close with his family. Six early sixties, has. His kids are amazing. Like we, we spent a couple Christmases together and, uh, yeah, he has, he's been like a triathlete in the past, but he has this score. 

Um, I forget what it was, but it's, it's higher. Um, so I, I'm going to definitely send this interview to him.  

Greg Mushen: Yeah, I I could send you a paper on it too, that, that talks all about it. I'm sure he'd like to see that. Probably put his mind at ease a little bit.  

Ted Ryce: Yeah, please do. Yeah, absolutely. And, and Greg, I wanted to take a little bit of a, a different direction here and maybe we can get into some of the questions that people wanted to, wanted you to answer. 

But, um, you're someone who came from the tech world. We had a, a bit of a, a phone conversation and, but man, you really, like, you've taken this stuff so seriously. What got you. To the point where you're reading studies, right? You didn't, 'cause most people, they're like, well, I watched a few YouTube videos, binge washed a, a few series on YouTube about whatever, low carb diets or, you know, or, um, but you, you skipped all that. 

You went right to, if you have this stomach for it, because it's not easy to, to digest is is the research. Right. And, and picking it apart. What motivated you to really take this on? What's the story behind that?  

Greg Mushen: Yeah. You know, I, I don't know the, the exact moment, um, but I think there was some period of time where I realized that. 

I think it might have been, it might have been something along the lines of somebody quoted a study and then I just, I just read it. I'm like, you know, I don't, I don't think that's actually what the study says. Um, but I started, I think, kind of gradually, you know, relying on more and more primary research, um, kind of to the point now where I think that's pretty much all I, all I read. 

Yeah. So I can't remember the exact genesis, uh, moment of it, but I think there was some moment where I just started getting into it. And then over time that just became kind of the primary. But I think, I think also you would, I would see people, you know, posting these single studies and, you know, you can't always rely on a single study. 

A single study is gonna tell you. One thing, but you know, where I think that you really get the answer is once when you start seeing, you know, all kinds of different studies kind of converge on the same solution. So you might have some epidemiological studies or observational studies that are tracking cohorts. 

Um, you might have some, uh, mechanistic studies that kind of explain what might be happening in those cohorts and why. And then you can have some randomized control trials where. Certain interventions are tested and, and you can see the results in either of those. And you can see in multiple RCTs tested the same thing that it reproduces. 

And I think that's probably the, the most important hallmark of science is not what comes out of a single study, but does it reproduce and are you seeing the same signal, um, across, you know, multiple different kinds. So that's, I think, kind of what I started to do because I would see one RCT, it would say one thing, one thing I'd see another one that said a different thing. 

Maybe sometimes even the opposite or like no effect. And you saw an effect in one. So over the years I've just started to look more across, um, you know, multiple studies. Do they agree? Do they reproduce?  

Ted Ryce: Yeah. Well, well, thank you for, uh, putting yourself through that because I'm, I'm not the best at reading research, but I got away from when people are like, oh, haven't you read this book? 

I'm like, no, I haven't read the book. But I'll tell you like some of the re even if they cite studies in it, some of the, I think it's Dr. Michael Gregor, who's a controversial guy. He wanted to come on the show. I should have had him on, but I, I just kind of didn't want to talk to him at that point. But, uh, yeah, he has gone and he's done a good job as have other people and like, well, we looked at the studies that were cited in the book, and that's not what the study says. 

Right. It happens a lot with books. And if you're listening right now. You can't just because there's references in a book and you haven't read the references. And even if you did, you don't have the, let's say, literacy and, and research to understand it. And mine, mine is, ugh, it's, it's not great, but it, but I can get through a study and, and get an idea. 

And certainly I have a group of people I can ask about it when, when the, the statistics are, you know, difficult to understand or the study design. But yeah, just if you're listening right now, just keep that in mind. So Greg, but thank you for, for putting yourself through all that. Do you have plans? Are, are you gonna do anything business wise or, or, um. 

In, in the fitness industry? Or is this like a personal passion  

Greg Mushen: right now? It's a personal passion. I'm, I'm kind of worried about doing anything in business 'cause then I, I'd have to go find another personal passion because it'd become work. But, you know, right now I just, I just love writing. I know what you mean. 

I love, uh, doing research and discovering new things and then just talking about it is just so rewarding to me to get, uh, you know, DM sometimes or posts where, you know, I, I made this change that I saw one of your posts and it really made a big difference in my life. So that's what really drives me at this point. 

Ted Ryce: Yeah. Well, you inspired me, man. I've been in this industry for 26 years. I've seen, I've forgotten more than most people will ever learn, you know? Um, can't say that about you, but, uh, at least in, in terms of the amount of research you've read, but like, yeah. Um. Something about the way you communicate and, and the, the dots you've connected. 

Yeah, I personally found it, uh, very valuable. A lot of people talk about walking for fat loss, but the OG of that, at least in my mind is, is Mario Atomic. But I've always like, I like Mario. He's been on the show a couple times, but I'm just like, I don't wanna, I just feel like it's a little bit wimpy, you know, the walking thing, right. 

I, I'm gonna go in, I'm gonna get some hard cardio in, but, um, what I, where, where you changed my mind, it's like the flux idea. It's like, hmm, this is more important than like, you know, uh, if you wanna keep your arteries clear, if you want good metabolic health. So with that, oh,  

Greg Mushen: before we go to the questions, 'cause you said arteries, there's one thing that I wanted to say. 

Yeah. Uh, so. There were, there was, I did this comparison of these two studies, and I should post it again, but in terms of walking, one of the other really benefits is just keeping your, um, your arteries really supple. And so it used to be like in 2011, the guidelines said that your arteries just kind of got stiffer as we age. 

And in last five years we've realized that that's not, that's not true. But going back to the chim, they have, um, basically the same arterial stiffness as ultra marathoners, which is, I mean, so it's not stiff at all. They're maintaining really, really supple arteries, but it is literally the same as ultra marathoners masters, ultra marathoners. 

And that's because you just get these, you know, nitric oxide pulses constantly that are going to. Basically relax your, your, um, endothelial. So I just wanna put that in there before I went into questions.  

Ted Ryce: It brings up two things. One, I saw this fi I, I'll try to find the video again 'cause you, you got me on the kick of like going back, listening to some of these researchers and the cima and, um, there was. 

A quick exchange with this 78-year-old Shiman guy. And he is like, yeah. You know, at 78 I I, I don't walk that much anymore. I can only walk for about two days. And then, uh, that's probably the extent of it. It's, and it was like two days straight. Is is it's like, whoa. And, and you can imagine like a hunter gatherer situation. 

Like you, you might have to do that, right? I guess. I don't know. But it was funny the way he said, oh yeah, I could only walk for two days at 78 years old. Really had to dial it back.  

Greg Mushen: Yeah. 60 miles straight is about it. As much as I can do anymore.  

Ted Ryce: Yeah, exactly. Have you found, uh, one thing that has happened with me with switching away from the zone two to the, um. 

Just to 15,000 steps or more, which I've been getting in between fif, I think only one day was 15 and this has only been going on for eight or nine days right now. But, uh, yeah, definitely feel more, definitely feel more like the libidos up a bit, which was interesting. And I thought about the, I've thought about what you said about the shaman having these, these VO two maxes a lot higher and then also about the arterial health. 

Did you notice like any, like that? I'm also getting leaner. I've also had some other, I I, my workout today sucked, so it's hard to, one other thing I'll, I'll throw at you and then that I'd love to hear your thoughts on this is my, I have no idea what, historically I've used 2000 calories, uh, tracking in. My FitnessPal to lose body fat and get really lean. 

My appetite's been through the roof, uh, since I was doing the zone two cardio. It's gotten a bit better with the walking. Don't know why exactly, because I feel like I'm doing way more, although it's lower intensity. But man, I went into the gym today. I, I, I don't know if I'm, might be in a bit of a too deep of a deficit. 

Not even sure what, what did, what were your experiences like, you know, when you started doing these 17,000 steps per day?  

Greg Mushen: Oh yeah. When I started doing that, as in pretty deep deficit and I would go into the gym. I just feel pretty depleted actually. But you know, anymore if I'm, if I'm at. Maintenance or even at a little deficit, it doesn't really bother me so much anymore. 

So I'm not sure what, you know, adaptation that be over time. Maybe it's just like tons more oxidative capacity and aerobic capacity. But yeah, I just don't notice it as much anymore.  

Ted Ryce: Yeah. So if you're thinking about, you know, embarking on a 15 KA day or whatever, 17 KA day, or, uh, trying to up it, uh, just keep in mind, you know, some interesting changes happen. 

Did your, so your appetite, your appetite is, do you know, how do you track now how many calories you're eating?  

Greg Mushen: Yeah, I get between, um, 24 and 28. So kind of depending on what I'm doing, I'll, I'll kind of, uh, you know, switch it around a little bit. But yeah, I feel great on that amount. And if I go above 24, I'll be. 

Like 2,600 is around where I am for going, starting to go into surplus.  

Ted Ryce: Hmm. Gotcha. Yeah, so, so just know, um, 'cause I think that's so important. People tend to, people I think, you know, you're a big proponent of talking about calories and, and helping people understand energy balance. One of the reasons why I think people hate it though, it's like, I'm gonna just move more, eat less. 

And when people do that, they, they can't handle it because the hunger and fatigue, it's like, well, you did it wrong. It's not really, it's more like eat less, move, maybe move more depending on how much you're moving. But you really gotta choose one or the other. Right?  

Greg Mushen: Yeah, you do. And I'll be the first to say that, you know, tracking calories is. 

Uh, I don't think anyone likes it. I don't know a single person who likes it, but it is a great tool. And, you know, if you think about, um, the time that you spend, you know, maybe it's gonna take 30 seconds to a minute to log your calories per meal. So let's say that it's three minutes per day, that's 20 minutes per week. 

Um, you know, 80 minutes per month. If you're not making progress, how much time are you gonna be spending? Is it more than 80 minutes? I think probably. So, um, and actually you're gonna divert that energy into just sheer frustration. So you're gonna pay for it either way. It just depends. You're gonna spend that time. 

Either way, it just depends on how you wanna spend it. Are you gonna track and, you know, have some way to figure out why you're not reaching your goals or you just kind of, kind of guess. And, uh, so that's why I track, even though I'll be the first to admit, I don't like it.  

Ted Ryce: Yeah. You know, I, I tracked for years and then recently did a year of without tracking, um, just to see how, how I could do, and then I had a bunch of other things that I won't go into, but I did a bit of a bulk and, uh, I put on too much body fat for sure. 

I don't look bad, but I'm like, yeah, it, it tracking. I would even argue it. Tracking for cutting, you can get away with. I, I think it's important, but you can, I, I, my point is I think it's more important when you're balking you can easily overshoot.  

Greg Mushen: I think so too.  

Ted Ryce: Yeah.  

Greg Mushen: Yeah. 'cause you really have to dial it in. 

You know, if you're a little bit off, you're gonna get too fat. If you're a little bit off on the downside, you're not gonna gain muscle. So you've gotta be pretty precise. Couple hundred calories in, you know, surplus and you're  

Ted Ryce: gonna nail it. There you go. Well listen, um, let's, uh, let's shift into some shift into some, uh, some of the questions. 

So, so it's funny 'cause people in, in, in case you didn't catch that, that reference to the walking course, you know, people are making fun of Greg not making fun of you, but having fun with you because you're just giving all this information. You, you, this is not the way you earn money. You don't have a business or even business intentions here, but, uh, people were asking for like, uh, the walking course you sell or promo codes. 

Greg Mushen: Yeah. That, that became a big joke because somebody called me a walking grifter and they were serious. So I kind of leaned into that joke a little bit 'cause I thought it was so funny.  

Ted Ryce: Oh man. Time to get off, get off social media if, if you're, you know, saying things like that. So, so we have a question or a two part question actually from Neil Quinn and, and Neil, this was recorded, but he wanted to know best exercise to implo improve insulin resistance. 

And then, uh, the second one was diet plan, simplification tip. So I can't speak English right now.  

Greg Mushen: Oh, gotcha. Well, first of all, hi Neil. Good, good to hear from you. So, best exercise to improve insulin resistance, you know, really is gonna come down to that flux. Uh, there, there are kind of four major, you know, subtypes of insulin resistance. 

You know, they're probably, if you think of all accommodations, there are a lot more than that. But, um, it's either gonna be insulin resistance in your adipose tissue, in your liver, hepatic insulin resistance, your muscle, or it's gonna be beta to beta cell dysfunction. The common thing is, is your cells are gonna get a little bit too much fat in them. 

So it's gonna be dags and ceramides. And whether that's in your muscle, your liver, adipose tissue, this is what's gonna blunt that insulin response. And so pretty much in every condition it's gonna be what are you gonna do to kind of get that, get that fat down and remove that fat, which is gonna be, you know, either zone two, lots of steps, lifting weights is great. 

I think doing any of those is gonna be awesome in all conditions. And then whatever you can do to, you know, lower visceral fat, which is gonna be, you know, getting in a deficit and kind of losing fat in general is gonna be really important for that. And then there are actually, I, I'm gonna mention diet 'cause that was like his second question. 

This kind of bleeds into that a little bit. There are certain dietary interventions. Help more for certain kinds of insulin resistance. For example, in hepatic insulin resistance, which is gonna be liver fat, you can re, there are studies that show that you can reduce it like 31% of your liver fat in a couple days. 

And this would be on a, a ketogenic diet with really high MFA and Pufa. And I know that, you know, MFAs, PUFAs get a really bad rap, but on social media. But in this case they do happen to really help with liver fat reduction. And then, let's see. Um, so diet plan, simplifi simplification tips. I think the first one is find stuff you like to eat. 

I don't know, I feel like that's not talked about as much as it should be, but find stuff you like and that you kind of look forward to eating and. There's plenty of healthy stuff out there. You don't have to kill yourself or, you know, eat a whole bunch of stuff that you don't like. Most of the time you can find stuff that you like and is going to be good for you and is gonna make your, your, um, biomarkers look better. 

So if it meets those three criteria, I think you're good. And then another thing, um, that I think could be really good is once you find those things that you really like, if you can kind of eat the same things, you know, maybe find six to eight dishes that are easy to prepare or you don't have to think too much about it, and you can just kind of, you know how to make it, you know that you like it, you know, the macros in it. 

So I think that's another big one. And then to the extent that you can kind of cook, cook in bulk and just have things ready to go in the fridge. I feel like that's, that's one of the best tips is just kind of pre making your meals and just having things ready because you know, when you're really hungry, that could be a time where you can. 

Maybe make not the decision you would make if you just had things ready to go. You know, you might dip in and eat something that's kind of off your plan if you don't have things pre-prepared.  

Ted Ryce: Yeah. If I may, I'll throw in, make sure, like I cannot have ice cream in my home, but I'll eat it out on the street. 

So if you have any problems with like having any foods in your house, just don't buy 'em. It can be tough. I mean, if you have kids, some of my clients with kids, but, um, that, that's the other thing. It's just really simple to not buy it rather than to negotiate with yourself and your willpower depending on how it goes up and down throughout the day. 

Oh God, that pissed me off. Oh, cookies, right. Or whatever. So, uh, I'll throw in my 2 cents there and, and let's get onto this other question that's really interesting. Menace Loda, uh, like the word play there, can you expound on your red light experiment? How close was the Red Rush light to your skin? I read some information that says calculating JUULs per centimeter squared should be different for high powered lights that are far away versus up close due to the skin. 

Um, reflect, uh, reflectivity concerns.  

Greg Mushen: Yeah. So, um, I was using the red brush 360 for that experiment and I'll link the posts, uh, Ted but it was pretty quick. I followed this n equals one experiment that I, that I found in this paper. And this guy had been in China. He was an MD PhD and he used this combination of red light therapy and then green tea. 

And, um, it was amazing. His wrinkles just like vanished in a couple months, so I tried to reproduce it and it worked really well for me. Are you serious? Wow. Yeah. Yeah. I'll show you the pictures. I have it up on, on my profile, but just like, wow, like wrinkles just kind of vanished. But I used it, it was like about an arm's length away, so I just put my arm out and then I, I kind of positioned myself about that far away from, uh, the machine I'd gotten. 

I had this book, it was by Ari Wooden, it was called Red Light Therapy, and he tested the Red Rush 360 and he had the doses for skincare and stuff like that. So that's where I got it. But it is true that, um, for different powered lights, you're gonna have to have it a different distance away. If it's less than, you know, 3, 360 watts, you probably wanna get it a little closer to your skin. 

It's gonna depend on the power of your device, where you wanna put it. But for around 360 watts, you know, good rule of thumb is like about an arm's length away in like four or five minutes. You want about seven joules per centimeter square, seven to 10. It's like four or five minutes with that power. Got it. 

Ted Ryce: Yeah. That, that's amazing. I would love to try that. I'm in Brazil at the moment and we'll be here for, uh, probably another close to a year. Uh, I don't know if I can get that, but I love to experiment with stuff like this. So if you're listening right now and, um, you're curious about this red light experiment and seeing what happened, the link to that will be in the show notes for this episode, as will the promo code for your walking course. 

That's right. Really hard to read the, the, the name here, but methylate methylation related genes, common polymorphisms supplements, targeting problems to, to keep this on the, you know. Keep this from going down too much of a rabbit hole. I know you mentioned we, we had a little bit of a conversation about the, the methylation related genes and, and genetic testing, but what about supplements targeting, uh, problems? 

I know you mentioned methylated folate, if I remember correctly, based on something you found in your genetic tests and, and other supplements that you're taking right now for, uh, and, and listing the reason.  

Greg Mushen: Yeah, so this can be like one, a very complex topic, and then secondly, very individual topic because, you know, depending on if you have the gene, sometimes your blood work looks absolutely fine. 

So it doesn't always express, but in general, in general, I can kind of tell you what what I do for mine. For, uh, MTTR, it's um, uh, some methylated B12, I take 10 grams of creatine, um, because that. A lot of our methylation is actually to produce creatine. And so if you take supplemental creatine, you're kind of offloading that, that purpose of it. 

And for some people that can be a good thing. Um, for me specifically, it is a little folate. And then, um, I take a little TMG, um, as well, but trimethyl glycine, which is just, you know, extra methylator. I also think this, this is somewhat orthogonal, but related and, um, I think choline can be really important. 

Um, this is probably not talked about enough, but choline is gonna be used for VLDL export. Um, but if you don't have enough, then what's gonna happen is it won't have the structures necessary to fully form the the VLDL. And you're gonna get these really triglyceride rich, uh, VLDL, which ultimately breaks down into S-D-L-D-L. 

So these small dense LDL, which you don't want, but it's also gonna do another thing. Um, it's gonna tax your methylation pathway because it's gonna use, if you don't have choline, it's gonna move over to beane and so you can kind of get a drain there. So yeah, getting, getting enough choline is also really important for methylation just because of that. 

Ted Ryce: Got it. Yeah. May maybe, I think the do thing to do here is, uh, to get you back on at some point and maybe go down, uh, uh. A rabbit hole one, one other thing, well, not necessarily with methylation, but just like on some of these with that, but also some of these things also I didn't get to ask you. There were some things that I wanted to ask you about, but I want to turn this into a, this isn't Joe Rogan, where people are gonna listen for three hours. 

Uh, not quite there yet. One thing I do want to bring up though, uh, some people, I don't need to read these comments 'cause they're quite rude and, and a bit negative. But, um, you know, there, I remember you saying more recently you started taking, uh, TRT and are you taking, is that all you're taking when it comes to pharmaceuticals or are you experimenting with any of the peptides, the quote unquote peptides that are so popular out there right now? 

Greg Mushen: I try to keep it really simple in terms of interventions and so in terms of pharma that I take, I'll take, uh, testosterone. I'm on about 140 milligrams per week. That puts me around like nine 40 or so. I just feel really good there, which is why I kind of, I've kept it there. I've tried going higher, I've tried going lower, and that seems to be about the sweet spot for me. 

I just feel really, my mood's really stable and things like that. I take 2.5 milligrams of, of, uh, tadalafil every day. And that's, um, yeah, Cialis and uh, yeah, so it's primarily used for recile dysfunction. But the reason why I take, I take it off-label for, um, basically Endothelial health 'cause it's a PDE five inhibitor and so PDE five will break down CGMP and if you don't have enough cgm, p your smooth muscle cell can't relax and so your, you know, kinda artery, your endothelial get tied and kind of brittle. 

And, uh, so we, we produce less nitric oxide as we age, and we break it down faster. We break down, um, C-G-M-P-A lot faster. So we're kind of two problems there. So I'll take that. And then I take, um, uh, five milligrams of Rosuvastatin, um, for, so it's, it's a statin for, um, just lipids, pretty low dose. But  

Ted Ryce: because the genetic problem you found in your, the, the 15%,  

Greg Mushen: yeah, I need a little extra help there. 

I'm probably gonna be adding, um, eze, I'll probably be adding Ezetimibe, uh, for that because Rosuvastatin isn't like the most effective for a POE four. So.  

Ted Ryce: Got it. And when you started taking that, did you notice a drop? Were you looking at your Apple B and it wasn't below 60 or whatever, and, and you wanted, what, what, what were your numbers and then what, before and after? 

What were you looking at specifically?  

Greg Mushen: Yeah. Before it was like 90 for a B, and I think the five got it down to like 75. So I think if I add a little, is that my, I'll probably be able to drop that down to, you know, the 60 range, which I think is important for me because I've got, um, LPA, which I think is one of the other questions there. 

So for me, I've gotta drop it. Lower than most people would have to drop it.  

Ted Ryce: Got it. So you have an elevated lp, little a, yeah, yeah, exactly. Got it. And if you're listening right now, we've talked about that on the show. It's a separate, uh, marker for heart disease. So some people, I had a client with LP little A and the three hundreds, and he had hot, he had, uh, uh, app his a BI don't remember what it was, but because I was so hung up, I'm like, man, you gotta, you got, you've gotta deal with this. 

He was in his mid thirties and I was just like, one of my younger clients. I was like, you, you're, you're playing with fire here. And he has a history of heart disease in his family. It's like, well, I think we might. Have an idea why. Yeah. I feel like some people, I, I feel like one, one of the things that I, I appreciate about you, Greg, is uh, I feel like you're getting some people into this stuff where, you know, like my client, I'm like, if I saw that for me, I've had my LP low a tested, it's super low. 

So, but, but if I had what he had, man, I'd be, it, it would get me to change. But I feel like for some people, maybe there, it's not clear, or maybe I'm not educating them enough or spending enough time on it. But it's like for me, it, I would, I would take massive action. Have you seen that at all too? Maybe in yourself? 

For sure. Like learning all this stuff gets you really serious about your health, but, but also, have you seen it with anyone else? You see them start to change how they're approaching their health when they have some data?  

Greg Mushen: Yeah, definitely. Yeah. I, I, I think that, you know, if you get data on it and you can see that your numbers are high in that case, like really high LPA, really high BB history of family, heart disease, like you were saying, you know, why you, you know, why the risk is there. 

So, um, having data can just be, you know, pretty game changing, especially when you can match it with your genetics and, you know, and kind of triangulate exactly why things are happening.  

Ted Ryce: Yeah. Well, listen, Greg, we gotta do this again if you're up for it, because it was a lot of fun.  

Greg Mushen: Yeah, absolutely. Anytime. 

Ted Ryce: Yeah. Um, and for, for those people who. They're, they want, they wanna learn more. And, uh, maybe they're, if you're on X of course, just follow Greg there. Greg Musen, G-R-E-G-M-U-S-H-E-N. But you also have a Substack.  

Greg Mushen: Yeah. Uh, Substack is called Dark Lab, so it's a, I know the name might sound subversive, but it was really kind of a, an homage to the, the early, the labs, the 18 hundreds, you know, that kind of operated under candlelight with Galileo grinding glass. 

So, um, yeah, you can find me there too.  

Ted Ryce: Awesome. And listen, thank thanks again so much for coming on the show, sharing your time, your knowledge. Uh, thanks for taking the research seriously. You know, for people like me, I, I just felt like you had a very fresh take on things and I feel sometimes people in the health and fitness industry, we get a little bit too stuck in our ways of looking at things. 

And, um, so, so thanks for everything that you're doing.  

Greg Mushen: Oh, I appreciate that. Yeah. Thank you. And thanks so much for having me. We should do this again. I'd be, would be up for that. Loved it.  

Ted Ryce: Absolutely. Alright, if you're listening, that's it for today. Make sure you subscribe and if this hit home for you and someone maybe needs to hear this, make sure you give it a share.